Tim Russert Show - CNBC

January 18, 2003

Tim Russert: Good evening and welcome again.

Tonight our guest — you've read his byline for more than 20 years in The New York Times, first as the drama critic, then the Op-Ed page writer, and now he is the new associate editor of The New York Times. He's going to have a full-page essay on the Sunday Arts & Leisure section.

Frank Rich, welcome.

Mr. Frank Rich: Thanks for having me. Good to see you, Tim.

Russert: Tell me about your new assignment, your new challenge.

Mr. Rich: My new ch--my new challenge is that The Times is going to redo its entire culture coverage seven days a week, which has always been a mainstay in particular of The New York Times, being in the cultural capital of the world, and Howell Raines, the editor of the paper, has asked me to come in and help him in the--in a new culture editor, in a new Arts & Leisure editor, rethink all that coverage, everything from, you know, how we do movie listings to how we cover architecture and everything in between, and then sort of to anchor the whole new culture report by starting, as you said, a front-page column, essay, every week on--on the Sunday Arts & Leisure section that will be a mixture of culture, politics, news, a lot of the things I'd done in--in the Op-Ed column, but with a slightly more cultural bent and probably a slightly less Washington bent.

Russert: You know, it's interesting. When you hear 'Frank Rich,' you think 'drama critic,' Times, and then covering the conventions with Maureen Dowd, writing the Op-Ed pieces, the long ones in the Saturday New York Times.

Mr. Rich: Right.

Russert: You do demonstrate that there is an intersection between arts, culture, politics. How so?

Mr. Rich: I've alwa--you know, it's--it's strange. I've always felt that way. I mean, when I was a drama critic, for instance, I was always in the '80s concer--concerned with how the plays I was reviewing might reflect the world outside the theater. If you see a show like "Phantom of the Opera," does that tell you something about the opulence and the boom of the late '80s besides about "The Phantom of the Opera"? My idea with the Op-Ed column at The Times was always, when possible, to try to find that intersection between culture and news, because I strongly believe that the culture gives you the news in another way.

And, you know, if you see a show like "Joe Millionaire" now, it tells you something about what's going on during this rev up to a probable war in Iraq and where the country is in terms of reality and lack of reality. And so in everything I've done, including the new thing I'm going to do, it's to me been a driving force. And maybe it's because--I know I always felt this way as a kid even growing up in Washington, DC, surrounded by politics, but not from a political family, and being a culture nut, a movie and theater nut from early childhood.

Russert: You talk about that in an extraordinary way--your book "Ghost Light"--right here by Frank Rich--growing up in Washington. Talk about your first experience with the theater. You were six years old?

Mr. Rich: I was a r--a kid and I was a diehard fan of, God help me, the Washington Senators, the original Washington Senators, which literally always came in last in the American League. And...

Russert: It was Griffith Stadium, was it?

Mr. Rich: Griffith Stadium. I remember vivi--vividly, you know, way down in--down Florida Avenue. I mean, long gone.

Russert: Right.

Mr. Rich: And the Griffith family ran it, Calvin and Clark Griffith. And my parents ha--were like, you know, middle-class theatergoers. They liked the theater and they thought they'd take me and my sister to see a musical that was playing Washington downtown Broadway tour and it was "Damn Yankees," the perfect choice. Because what is "Damn Yankees" about? It's a fantasy about the Senators whipping the Yankees and--and getting into the World Series. And I was hooked. I was hooked by seeing Griffith Stadium on stage and seeing it wipe away in a second and become somebody's living room and Chevy Chase was on stage and--and also this energy of the theater and also a sexiness to the theater, I gradually realized, too, because another centerpiece of "Damn Yankees" is that Lola, the temptress of the devil, does a striptease, whatever Lola wants. So I was--that hooked me.

Russert: At what age?

Mr. Rich: It had to be s--it was about six; yeah.

Russert: Age six, cheering on a stripper. I like that.

Mr. Rich: Yeah. I didn't quite--I didn't quite get it. But a--but a couple of years--you know, the rest of me caught up--you know, my mind caught up with the rest of me, if you will.

Russert: And that's a perfect metaphor. Here you are in the '50s and "Damn Yankees" represents that era in a very profound way.

Mr. Rich: It--it really does. And also, one thing I realized actually in writing "Ghost Light," I was a child of divorce. Pretty soon after I saw "Damn Yankees," my parents would split up at a time when divorce was talked ab--not talked about. It wasn't on--on television. Everything was, you know, "Leave it to Beaver" and--and "Father Knows Best." You never saw in the culture divorce family. And "Damn Yankees," I realized only years later writing this book, gave me a hint of that because there's a plot--part of the plot is that a man leaves his wife, at least for a while, bec--to become a young ballplayer. ...(Unintelligible) my father didn't leave my mother. That's not what happened. But--but--so it connected me at some emotional level I didn't quite understand till years later, too--psychological level.

Russert: Is there a sense that television--"I Love Lucy," "Leave it to Beaver"--those programs are behind theater in terms of recognizing changing social mel--morays?

Mr. Rich: Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Theater, first of all, doesn't have to reach as mass an audience, so it can always afford to be m--a bit more experimental 'cause it doesn't have to speak to 100 million Americans. It c--if it can speak to 100,000 New Yorkers, it'll be a hit. So the theater has always in this country been a bit ahead, a certain part of theater. And--and--and even something as commercial as "Damn Yankees" was, in a way--I guess it wasn't really ex--it wasn't experimental or anything. But for me as a kid growing up in the '50s, it showed me something in my life that I had not found on television, which I was a religious watcher of, as well.

Russert: You be--then finagled your way as a ticket taker...

Mr. Rich: I know.

Russert: ...at the National Theatre...

Mr. Rich: Well, the National...

Russert: ...just to see the shows free.

Mr. Rich: The National Theatre, which was before the Kennedy Center was built, was this huge tryout house for shows on their way to Broadway. The manager took pity on me because he kept seeing me coming in with Washington Star paper route money buying second-balcony tickets and standing room. And finally when he saw me come back like for the third time to see "How To Succeed in Business Without Really Trying," he said, 'I'm going to write you a pass,' and then he offered me a job and it--and it really was a fantastic experience for me.

Russert: Well, you saw extraordinary people at the National Theatre--Art Carney and others.

Mr. Rich: I saw the original production of "Odd Couple" with Art Carney and Walter Matthau. I saw "Fiddler on the Roof" tryout there with Zero Mostel. I saw the original "Barefoot in the Park" tryout there with Robert Redford and Elizabeth Ashley. It was a very glamorous--it was the--probably the last really glamorous period for Broadway, and the last period when shows didn't do previews in New York, but tried out in cities like Washington, Philadelphia and Boston.

Russert: We're going to take a quick break. We're talking with Frank Rich, the new associate editor of The New York Times. You can read about him on the Op-Ed page this weekend, his last piece. He was the drama critic for at least 15 years or so, or close to it, at The Times. A lot more of our conversation after this.

(Announcements)

Russert: And we're talking to Frank Rich. You read him in The New York Times on a regular basis.

You were talking a little bit about arts and culture and intersection with politics. You've come at an--on a regular basis about politicians and their lack of understanding of pop culture.

Mr. Rich: Right.

Russert: The new phenomenon now of political people going on "Saturday Night Live"--talk about that a little bit. What do you see? What do you think--how is it playing? Is it worthwhile? Is is it connecting?

Mr. Rich: It's interesting, 'cause so--somebody said it's the premise of my new column and my whole belief about this, that--that these politicians have figured out culture is the news, that there is a whole segment out there of potential voters, not just young people, who glean their politics and their news from ch--"Saturday Night Live," "Jon Stewart." They never read The New York Times; they don't watch "Meet the Press." It's a whole different audience. And so these politicians, perhaps not in--in all cases knowing what they're getting into, but knowing it makes sense if they're going to sell themselves, feel that they have to get--get involved. In a way, this began with Bill Clinton, because I think in retrospect his going on at the--nobody remembers it anymore--the "Arsenio Hall Show" and playing the sax...

Russert: Absolutely. Wearing the sunglasses.

Mr. Rich: ...wearing the sunglasses "Blues Brothers" style.

Russert: And he was criticized for that, and yet a whole lot of kids, people, black and white, saw that and said, 'Hey, this guy might be a little bit hip.'

Mr. Rich: Exactly. And it wasn't even a successful late night show, you know, that he did it on. You know, it wasn't like he went on the...

Russert: And I'm not sure how well he could play the sax, either.

Mr. Rich: Yeah, ex--exactly. And--but, you know, it was interesting, too, because at that same time, you may recall, Dan Quayle had made an issue about Murphy Brown being an unwed mother. And in some ways I look at that as a cultural changing of the guard. Leaving aside the political issues entirely, I think Quayle made a mistake. Even if his position was right--I don't agree with it--but we'll say for the sake of argument his position was right about Murphy Brown, he made a mistake in attacking a popular culture show that he hadn't seen and didn't quite get the language and probably he would have reconsidered it years later; whereas Clinton on the other side had this instinctive feel for the pop culture, so it's just escalated ever since.

And basically, you know, it's--it may come to the point where it's so routine that everyone just is bored by it, but I think it's--if you look at it, it's done most people rather well. I mean, Gore got--just before he left a president--punitive presidential race, got his best reviews ever for "Saturday Night Live," and John McCain a few weeks earlier, you know, doing Barbra Streisand singing "Memory." It was pretty--pretty funny, I thought. And McCain, though, seems to get it a little bit more than most politicians.

Russert: When you have someone like John McCain and Al Gore, the chances are probably--certainly in the short term--they won't be running for president. Is it safer for a non-presidential candidate to take those kinds of chances?

Mr. Rich: Oh, of--oh, of course. But--but, you know, I think that they're going to have to put up with it just like when everyone reluctantly had to go on "Oprah." You know, I don't think George W. Bush was dying to go on "Oprah" during the last campaign, and I don't think he really knew what it was until, you know, w--a week before he got there. But he did it because I think it's required if you're going to reach--it's such a huge constituency and it's the next group of voters. And what didn't--didn't John Edwards declare in advance that he would announce his candidacy on the--"The Jon Stewart"--and so, you know, I think that the--these guys are realizing, and women, too, obviously you've got to go there.

Russert: A good of friend of Al Gore's said to me, 'When I saw him in the hot tub sipping champagne, I knew he was not going to run, at least this cycle.'

Mr. Rich: Right. Right. Exactly. But, you know, there may be--come a time when politician X sitting in a hot tub of "Saturday Night Live" will ru--it will be a way of running...

Russert: To announce his candidacy...

Mr. Rich: Announce his candidacy in the hot tub.

Russert: ...from the hot tub.

Mr. Rich: Yeah, exactly.

I--I w--I wouldn't rule it out, because that is--you know, in a--in a country that in many ways is--has all sorts of different constituencies, mass culture at its biggest is the thing that's in some ways more unifying than government or politics. It's--it's...

Russert: Oh, talk about that, Frank. That's really interesting.

Mr. Rich: Yeah. It's--it's--it's--it's a touchstone for people. I mean, everyone has an opinion about Madonna or Eminem or Oprah or Leno vs. Letterman. Everyone--that's the unifying thing. And while it's--it's not ideological particularly, it's--it's--it's the water cooler--as people are--say almost tirelessly, 'It's that water cooler moment.' People are going to talk about "Survivor" perhaps more than a presidential debate.

Russert: Or a reform of Social Security.

Mr. Rich: Yeah. Or reform...

Russert: You're breaking my heart.

Mr. Rich: Yeah, exactly. You know--ex--exactly. You know, pr--it's fascinating right now to look at all the medical shows on television, which continue to sort of escalate and expand. That's how people get the news about medicine, not about a debate about a prescription drug plan or saving Medicare. And so politicians--or at least the people around politicians, because most politicians don't consume this culture at all unless, you know, they're forced to at gunpoint--realize there's got to be some way to horn in on it because they're opportunistic; they want to sell themselves. And so in some ways just the way commercial sponsors want to be on these shows, they've got to figure out a way to--to get into that--that conversation.

Russert: You know, Bill Frist, the senator from Tennessee, the new majority leader, had to get permission from the Senate to put on his name plate Bill Frist, MD, because he really wants to be called 'Doctor,' not only because he is a doctor, he believes that that helps define him to a whole lot of people. And I think your comments about what people are seeing all day on television just gave me a real insight.

Mr. Rich: No. I--absolutely. In fact, I--I'm going to talk about this a little bit--I am talking about this in this--in this--in--in my last Op-Ed column, which is published this weekend, a little bit about Frist using the doctor thing. And I th--I think you're right. I think in the era of "ER" and all of this stuff, it's--it's the way to go.

Russert: And we remember Marcus Welby.

Mr. Rich: I mean--Marcus Welby, well, gosh.

Russert: I mean, can he heal the Senate?

Mr. Rich: Yeah. Not to mention Dr. Kildare.

Russert: Wait a minute. Now we're getting too m...

Mr. Rich: We're getting--but--but, no. I think, you know, instinctively, if not calculatedly, Frist probably--Dr. Frist probably recognizes this is a plus. But, of course, he's pointing--it s--it makes another interesting distinction because he's saying that doctor is a positive thing, which it generally is on television; it sometimes isn't if you're dealing in com--with a big HMO and complaining about it. So he's taking a calculated risk in a way that the old cultural idea of the wonderful doctor and it's still upheld on network television outweighs the--the person who's just incredibly angry that, you know, the doctor won't see him or--or her on--you know, through an HMO bureaucracy.

Russert: For some reason, even though I sit in the doctor's office for minutes, maybe hours, I don't take it out on the doctor.

Mr. Rich: Right. And it's the...

Russert: It's the damn scheduler, not the doctor.

Mr. Rich: It's the--exactly, it's the--it's the schedule. Exactly. Exactly.

Russert: Your--your colleague, Maureen Dowd, wrote a great column a few weeks ago: Dr. Perfect--being Frist--vs. Saint Hillary--Hillary Clinton...

Mr. Rich: Yeah. Yeah.

Russert: ...in 2008.

Mr. Rich: Right. Yes, it's going to be--it's going to be a m--and maybe they'll meet in the hot tub with you--with you, by the way, moderating.

Russert: Oh, God. You don't want to see it.

We'll be right back. A lot more of Frank Rich after this.

(Announcements)

Russert: And we're back talking to Frank Rich, former drama critic for The New York Times. He will soon be writing a piece in late March, early April on the Sunday Arts & Leisure section, talking about politics, arts, culture.

Ronald Reagan, Fred Thompson, George Murphy--actors who found kind of a seamless path into politics. There's a certain connection there as well, isn't there?

Mr. Rich: There is a connection. And look--look back at--even at--at Kennedy. I don't want to make too much of this. But his father was, after all, a big figure in show business and a Hollywood guy in part of his career. Kennedy himself, John Kennedy, was very enamored of show business. It was considered shocking at the time, as you remember, that he would have this huge gala when he was inaugurated with everyone from Ethel Merman to the r--Frank Sinatra...

Russert: Frank Sinatra.

Mr. Rich: ...and the Rat Pack and Lenny Bernstein and all these people. And that was the...

Russert: And the famous 'Happy birthday, Mr. President' from Marilyn.

Mr. Rich: Right. And--on--on the le--yes, and the--and a happy birthday it seemingly was. But--but the thing that...

Russert: Who stitched that gown?

Mr. Rich: I--it keeps turning up on eBay. I don't know. But the--I think Kennedy kind--in a way kind of pioneered it and--and really was very prescient in his tragically short career in the White House at milking this. I--I remember so vividly that when Vaughn Meader started doing this dead-on enc--Kennedy impersonation, indeed, of the whole family, and became the number-one selling record in the country, Kennedy was asked about it at press conference, and said, you know, he sounds rather more like Bobby, you know, and--and embraced this--this whole idea of--of pop culture and--and of course, as we know, the fact that he looked better on television, whatever he was saying helped in the debate.

So I think it paved the way in a way for--for Ronald Reagan, who--who literally had been an actor with a long career on television, addressing the public and who was a brilliant communicator who heightened the awareness that you can use everything from sets to lighting to props to really go the--go the whole hog and use the per--paraphernalia Hollywood. Now it's totally standard, as--as--to your--my frustration and yours. I mean, you sometimes break through it. Every word is so rehearsed, as if in a play or a TV show, that it's become sort of ridiculous to the point where maybe we hope we'll see some spontaneity if they go on "Saturday Night Live" and at least someone else is writing the scr--you know, Lorne Michaels' crew is...

Russert: They'll go off message.

Mr. Rich: Yeah, go off message for a second.

But it's--it's--it's--and also I think it's not for nothing this has happened over the past 40-plus years, because it's been the big explosion of mass culture. I mean, the--the explosion of television--television was already big by 1960, but it's just gotten bigger and bigger--the rise of cable, all these channels, the r--the--the--the conquest of America by popular music. It's, you know, the movies, multiplexes. It's really such an enormous force in our life. It's our biggest export, and so there's kind of this synergy now.

Russert: Ronald Reagan in one of the debates was at the podium and he kept looking up and he finally said, 'There's something wrong with that key light.'

Mr. Rich: Right.

Russert: And they climbed up and figured, 'Oh, yes, he was right.' And it was casting the wrong kind of shadow. His last day in office we were doing an exit interview with him and he finished it all and we were packing up the gear, and I said, 'Mr. President, is there anything that surprised you about working in the Oval Office or anything unique you think you brought to it?' And I don't mean the traditional question of: Can an actor be a president? Because he has said you can't be a good president without being a good actor.

Mr. Rich: Right.

Russert: He said, 'Yeah, there's one thing. I believe I'm the only person in the Oval Office who's worked here who knows and understands what he looks like from every angle.' And I...

Mr. Rich: And that's fascinating. I mean...

Russert: Think about it.

Mr. Rich: But it's true. And he--and he had to learn it for self-protection because just, you know, all the stories about the actresses or actors, for that matter, who can just tell when their wrong profile is somehow getting in the shot. And, you know, Reagan had all these years of experience and he really knew it and--and he exploited it, and now no major American politician is not surrounded by people who know that, even if the politician him or herself does not.

Russert: It was instinctive for Reagan. You--I've never seen a bad picture of Ronald Reagan--always the salute, the 'golly, shucks.' He always knew when he was on.

Mr. Rich: He--absolutely. And--and--and that's a real profession. It's a craft, and it's a craft that he rose above to do many other things obviously, but it still is a craft.

When Maureen Dowd and I were doing a column at the political conventions in 1992, we j...

Russert: By the way, that's the greatest correction I've ever read in my whole life, when you wrote the '96 Houston convention and you said, 'Of course it was '92. I was there. I can only blame it on the margaritas.'

Mr. Rich: You remember that convention, it was like 115 degrees with smog to match and you needed a couple of margaritas to...

Russert: Oh, God. But you know what? Most reporters would try to scam and shuck and jive, you know, 'I missed the date, my typewriter, my computer.' No, the margaritas did it!

Mr. Rich: The margaritas; absolutely. And so--and it's hilarious that--you know, it was amazing how your brain short-circuits.

But during that convention Maureen and I did a--when we were doing our column, we did an item about George--George Bush Sr. His brother--and I knew this from Broadway lore--Jonathan Bush, for many years an investment banker or money guy in New York, had tried to have a Broadway career. And...

Russert: As an actor.

Mr. Rich: As an actor, as--really as a musical comedy performer. He had played Will Parker in "Oklahoma" at the City Center at 55th Street. He had been up for a role that he lost to Robert Morse in a musical with Jackie Gleason, called "Take Me Along." He had even been in a--in a kind of experimental off-Broadway show with the very young Ed Asner. And...

Russert: Talk about a political odd couple.

Mr. Rich: Right. Ex--ex--absolutely. But, of course, probably neither of them had much politics then.

Russert: Right, right.

Mr. Rich: And--and--indeed, and Variety had charted it because it kept referring to him as Prescott Bush's son, because no one knew who George Bush--his brother was yet. So we did some nosing around and discovered that, indeed, in '88 Jonathan Bush had gotten his--a very--one of the most famous acting teachers in the history of this country, the--the now late Stella Adler and sought her advice because his brother during the '88 primaries a little too high-pitched, a little too many gestures, and had--if not Stella Adler herself, someone that she had designated had coached him.

Russert: Gave him lessons. Oh, my God!

Another quick break. A lot more with Frank Rich after this.

(Announcements)

Russert: And we are back with Frank Rich, drama critic for The New York Times for 13 years. He wrote an op-ed piece for nine years. Beginning late March, he'll be writing every Sunday on the front page of the Arts & Leisure section. We're talking about politics, culture, art, the intersection.

Talking about John Kennedy, I remember my parents talking about this young senator from Massachusetts, John Kennedy--handsome, articulate--that they saw on "The Tonight Show."

Mr. Rich: Amazing.

Russert: I remember John Lindsay, the mayor of New York, on "The Tonight Show." They were probably the two politicians that understood way back then this is the way to find access into living rooms--all of them programs like "Meet the Press" or The New York Times or something else.

Mr. Rich: Right.

I mean, Lindsay was as much a d--a--a devotee of this certainly as--as John Kennedy was. And famously, I remember reading this as a k--as a kid or as a teen-ager, you know, would turn up at Broadway openings and kind of like the old mayor of New York, Jimmy Walker, you know, pose with showgirls and what have you and then really cultivated it a telegenic image. And, indeed, there's even a connection between Lindsay's--I believe between Lindsay's show business sort of interest and the career of our mutual friend Bill Safire, because when--one of the dark things I discovered about Bill--there are no dark things about Bill. But I was doing once some research on theater history and found press releases in an--in an archive in a library from the--the League of New York Theaters and Producers, which is Broadway trade association, like the--the Jack Valenti-type group for the theater, sent out by William Safire in the--in the early '60s and--early to mid-'60s, and I asked him about it. And he said, 'Well, you know, it was that little period when Nixon was out in the wilderness and so on,' and John Lindsay recommended him for the job to League of New York Theaters. And I said, 'Well, what--what did you do at that job?' He said, 'Well, my main responsibility was to periodically go to The New York Times to get the--try to get the drama critic fired.

Russert: I'm going to ask Safire if he was ever a Lindsay Republican. This is going...

Mr. Rich: I don't know the answer to that.

Russert: It--it actually was Bill Safire who staged the famous Kitchen debate with Nikita Khrushchev.

Mr. Rich: And what's better showbiz than that? But, of course, as you know, Bill, early in his career, worked with "Tex and Jinx," famous radio show before our time...

Russert: Tex McCrary; yeah.

Mr. Rich: ...if Tex McCrary is still around--after the war in New York. And--you know, so he--he--I think Barbara Walters worked with him as a--as a young fledgling broadcast journalist at that--in--in that office.

Russert: What is it--what is it like--what was it like being the drama critic of The New York Times? They called you the 'Butcher of Broadway,' and on and on and on.

Mr. Rich: Broadway; right.

Russert: But the fact is, you were someone--actually, Joseph Papp--Joseph Papp said, 'You know, Frank, you write reviews that bother me, but I never questioned your passion for the theater.' What is it like trying to go in there and write something fairly and objectively knowing, 'You know what? This is probably going to end this run on Broadway, but I'm telling the truth because my commitment and obligation to quality on theater is higher than the next run for this play'?

Mr. Rich: Well--well, you're right. And also, my commitment to the readers of The Times. I always felt I--look, I love the theater and--and it pained me to write negative, reviews unless it was something that was totally, you know, vulgar, trying to rip people off. But if it...

Russert: What's the worse play you have ever saw?

Mr. Rich: Oh, there's no question, a play--a play that's gone down in Broadway legend--it closed in one night--called "Moose Murders."

Russert: Wh--wh--wh...

Mr. Rich: "Moose Murders"?

Russert: What was it about and who was in it?

Mr. Rich: Well, it--it wa--it opened in pre--it started in previews in New York and it was supposed to be Eve Arden--remember "Our Miss Brooks"?--her comeback to the st--the stage long after she'd retired from television. This was in the early 1980s. However, she left the show during previews and was replaced by an actress who's gone on to be a very important character actress in Hollywood in TV and movies named Holland Taylor, but who was then unknown.

But anyway, I go to see this play. The--the critics were invited to a Wednesday matinee to review it. It was opening Thursday night. And I go with a friend of mine and the first thing we sit down and we s--we smell literally vomit. I don't know how else to say it. And it turned out that there was a--a bag person sitting in front of us because they had literally given out tickets on the street to this b--it was a big Broadway show and hal--the whole audience had sort of moved to the back of the theater, but I felt like I had to be--I had to sit in the seventh row center or whatever. I couldn't leave. Then the curtain goes up. It turned out to be a murder mystery set in a hunting lodge in the Adirondacks with huge stuffed moose heads everywhere, hence the title. And I'll say no more except that it turns out that the person who does it is someone who's in gauze up until the last scene because he's a quadriplegic and it turns out he is--he is the murderer.

It really was--it really was...

Russert: One night, gone.

Mr. Rich: One night go--people still talk about it. There have been attempts to, you know, ha--people talked about reviving it, turning it into a musical. It really was--it was--if you look, it was memorable. It guess in some way it was great theater, you know. But I'll never forget it.

Russert: Wha--has there ever been a very popular production that you just said, 'You know what? This is awful,' and you panned it but it still continued on?

Mr. Rich: Oh, many times, which is fine. You know, I've--in fact, when I did a book called "Hot Seat" a few years ago--it was a collection of my theater reviews--at the back I had various appendices and I had a list of all the shows that I had panned that have gone on to have huge runs--"Starlight Express," Andrew Lloyd Webber's roller-skating show; "I'm Not Rappaport," a play I didn't--a comedy I didn't like--as well as a list of all the shows that I raved that closed in a month, you know. And--and in the end, time tells you--well, no one's right or wrong in criticism. But time tells what holds up. One show, for instance, that I liked a lot that had a very disappointing run on Broadway was a first play by an unknown writer named August Wilson called "Ma Rainey's Black Bottom." And it's sort of gratifying to see that it's actual--Whoopi Goldberg and Charles Dutton are bringing it back to Broadway imminently--I mean, I think it starts previewing very soon--even though it was a flop then. But look, you know, many people enjoyed "Starlight Express." Great, you know, just as long as I didn't have to see it again.

Russert: I saw Ma Rainey on Front Street in Memphis, Tennessee, in 1978...

Mr. Rich: Wow.

Russert: ...and she walked out and said, 'My name is Ma Rainey. I'm 88 years old. And I had enough of nothing.'

Mr. Rich: Oh, man. Oh, wow. What a poignant, wonderful...

Russert: We'll be right back. A lot more with Frank Rich right after this.

(Announcements)

Russert: And we are back talking to Frank Rich. He is the new associate editor of The New York Times, be writing a column end of March, early April on the front page of the Arts & Leisure section.

You have been outspoken in writing about the gay culture in America.

Mr. Rich: Mm-hmm.

Russert: Talk about that, how you encountered it, why you wrote it, why you think it's such a matter of civil rights.

Mr. Rich: I encountered it actually through the theater beat. When I was drama critic of The Times in the 1980s, I began to realize that literally the--the artists that I admired or maybe not all--I didn't admire all of them, but the artists that I was covering in this job as a drama critic were dying of this disease, and that's how it presented itself to me. I had never ever really thought much about gay issues or--I guess t--you know, when I was in college, gay people were--even in colle--you know, even at the college I went to, which was a fairly progressive, you know, open-minded college, I n--I would come to realize that I knew gay people who were in the closet; I didn't know they were gay. And so I'd never really looked at it before. Now it's 10 years after I get out of college and this disease starts in New York, and first it starts happening in the form of casualties, including the de--the deaths of some really great artists in the theater, like Michael Bennett, who--who choreographed and invented "A Chorus Line," and then it became the subject of plays, too, culminating in a--in what I think is one of the best American plays of my tenure as drama critic, "Angels in America" by Tony Kushner, which is I think soon going to be done on HBO by Mike Nichols.

So I saw--it was eye opening to me, as I think it was ultimately for much of America. I think that AIDS, once it became known about and people started to find out that people they knew were gay because the disease in essence brought them out of the closet, I think it changed all--a lot of Americans thinking about it. And I just happened to see it a little bit ahead of the curve simply because I was covering an industry in New York which pro--which, you know, the theater has a disproportionate number of gay principals in it, gay--gay players in it.

And so--and so then I just--you know, like anything that interested me, I started reporting on it, thinking about it, writing about it. And in some ways it's--you know, it was very eye opening, because I learned also--and it's one of the themes that's sort of a secondary theme even in my book "Ghost Life" that there have been gay people all through my childhood that I didn't know they were gay--they had to hide who they were--and in some cases did me a good turn, like when I was a kid trying to figure out how to be a ticket taker in the theater. But I didn't know any of it at the time. You know, it's a minority that was so hidden. If someone's of a different race than you are, you see it. But this was a b--a hidden minority in American culture for so long.

And, of course, what's happened over the past 15 years has been a revolution in terms of rights, status, acceptance, and--and I think most Americans now are aware not only of the--that gay people deserve obviously the same civil rights as everyone else, but what a role they've played, often quite positive, in our culture; and not just in the theater, but in, you know, everyth--this whole mass culture of ours.

Russert: Ironically, when you grew up, it was irrelevant that people were gay. You didn't know it.

Mr. Rich: Didn't know it. I never heard the word. I mean...

Russert: And--and--and--and--which is probably the way it should be.

Mr. Rich: Yeah, it--it was irrelevant except for--for gay people, I now realize, it--it was--it could be traumatizing, it could be--it could--you know, to not be able to be honest about themselves. In mean, in "Ghost Life" there's a--there's a theater road manager who really became sort of a surrogate father for me as--in the best sense of the world in teaching me lessons about life when I was a somewhat troubled teen-ager. And he's someone who--who I would learn years later died of AIDS long after I--I knew him. And I think--you know, I wish he were around, so I could say to him, 'Oh you're gay' and I wouldn't have mi--I--maybe I would have minded then 'cause I didn't know anything about it. But...

Russert: Your wife wanted to find him for you as a--as a present.

Mr. Rich: Yeah, my--my--my wife actually went searching for him because he'd long since left the theater and then found out that he had died. And I wanted to say thank you, and I felt it's tragic, really. This guy couldn't say who he was to me. You know, th--the--he couldn't have at that time, e--no matter how I would have reacted to it. So he had to live a lie. He had to pretend he had girlfriends, he had to, you know do--do all sorts of things. And in--you know, in today's world, that guy could have children and be a real f--you know, a f--an official father to a kid rather than a surrogate one get--and not have to pretend to be something other than he is. So I really think it's been a really interesting and important social revolution, and one that's largely been accomplished li--you know, certain kicking and screaming along the way from some groups, but, you know, it's not an issue that George W. Bush or a Republican president is touching at all, as far as I can tell, riling people up about it or--or--or anything. You know, it's really, there are too--you know, there are too many gay Republicans as there are gay everything else.

Russert: In the 2000 presidential election, Republicans McCain and Bush were competing for the endorsement of the Log Cabin...

Mr. Rich: Absolutely.

Russert: ...Society, the gay Republicans. And then now here we are in 2003, Governor Howard Dean, governor of Vermont, will talk openly about having signed legislation allowing civil unions in Vermont. And he talks about how he went home at night and was going to oppose it because he thought politically it could be dangerous. And he woke up and said that if I do that, it's contrary to everything I've tried to achieve in politics of being fair to everybody, no matter where they may come on--on the spectrum. And yet, it's difficult, I think, for many of the candidates--and we'll find out during this campaign cycle...

Mr. Rich: Right.

Russert: ...because there'll be pressures from some constituencies saying, you know, it's immoral behavior or it's wrong behavior. How do you see this playing out as an issue in a pr--this presidential race?

Mr. Rich: I don't think it's going to, in the end, be a major issue because I really think that the public is--has moved far along. Just--your description of Howard Dean is such a change from Bill Clinton, who you may remember signed the so-called Defense of Marriage Act, which was a gesture to people who think gay behavior is immoral and so on--I don't think any Democrat would sign--Democratic president would sign that bill today. And we're only talking about something that happened a few years ago. And I just don't think that anyone is going to demagogue this issue the way they used to. I mean, maybe people will on the fringes in--in one party or another, but I just don't see it happening and I just don't see it as a major issue. I don't think there's really much in it for a candidate doing it. Because to--to demonize gay people makes you look mean. I think it's the al--the antithesis of what, for instance, George W. Bush and the--a s--and a supposedly compassionate conservative Republican Party would want to be represented by. And I think we saw that begin to change in--in his previous campaign and that party. And if anything, oddly enough, race and--and possibly abortion may be more of an issue than gay rights in this next campaign. I could be wrong, but I just--I just don't see that happening.

Russert: Another quick break. A lot more with Frank Rich right after this.

(Announcements)

Russert: And we are back talking to Frank Rich of the New York Times. We mentioned Howard Dean--how do you see the Democratic race shaping up?--Howard Dean, Dick Gephardt, John Kerry, John Edwards, Joe Lieberman, Al Sharpton.

Mr. Rich: It's fascinating. I mean, I think--look, with--with Gore and Daschle both out of it, it's a much more interesting race, don't you think?

Russert: Oh, absolutely.

Mr. Rich: I mean, it's just--you know, there's no 800-pound gorilla in there. And right now I think all the candidates are embryonic. They all have their shtick, you know. Lieberman, it's faith; Edwards, it's the regular person; Kerry is studious, serious citizen...

Russert: Citizen soldier.

Mr. Rich: ...citizen soldier, exactly. And Dean is the--you know, the--sort of the maverick slot. Eventually, there's going to be a shakedown, s--shaped by events, including tumultuous events that could happen, you know, in this country or abroad. And I think it's all--I think it's all up for grabs, and I think the whole election is probably up for grabs, so...

Russert: Now that's--that's interesting 'cause the conventional wisdom is George W. Bush, sailing along, his favorables down to 58 but still very high for the third year of our presidency. But Iraq, North Korea--we're still losing 70,000 jobs per month, more than two million since the Inauguration Day. The fact that there are six Democrats running for the nomination indicates they think the nomination is worth winning.

Mr. Rich: I--and I think it i--look, anything could happen. We could have--George--George W. Bush could have triumphs in the execution of this policy and be back at the same approval rating that he was, you know, after 9/11 come Election Day 2004. But while no one would wish this, there is a scenario by which things could go astray, particularly in the economy. There may be a relationship between a wa--a potential war in Iraq and the economy and what happens to the economy. And let's face it, no one knows. We've all heard, said, written about a million possible scenarios of what happens when and if we go to Baghdad. But no one can agree on anything from what the war is going to cost to what casualties there are going to be to what the ramifications are going to be in Middle East and central Asia. And so--not to mention on our economy. So it's all up for grabs. And its--you know, it's a--it's an interesting and historical moment in that sense.

Russert: A lot of unpredictables. Do any of these Democratic candidates strike you as men who have an ear for pop culture?

Mr. Rich: No.

Russert: Pretty interesting in light of our conversation.

Mr. Rich: Yeah. No, they'll get it. I mean, I guess you have to say John Edwards was cl--clever and maybe he does have something in the--of an ear by--I don't know enough to know yet, but by forging a path to John Stuart there in the early going...

Russert: Can you see Dick Gephardt hosting "Saturday Night Live?"

Mr. Rich: No. No, unless they give him some Groucho eyebrows.

Russert: Now, Al--Reverend Al Sharpton, what's your take?

Mr. Rich: Well, of course, he is a consummate entertainer. I--I know you've had your innings with him. I just think he's a gadfly. I--I just don't believe that somebody who has not been elected to public office can seriously run for the president. And--and if he wants to say race had something to do with that, I think it has nothing to do with it. I think it's--he's a smart guy. He is somebody who's kind of hip about the medias and culture. He certainly knew enough to get away from Michael Jackson as soon as he could when he got involved in that whole stunt last year. But he--he put his distance in th--in that episode. But--but I do think he's a gadfly who--who's entitled to run and state his opinions and try to keep the other guys honest on the issues he cares about. But do I think he is a serious contender or even a serious spoiler? No, but, of course, you make predictions about politics and you could be proven wrong. But...

Russert: Interestingly enough, his godfather is the godfather of soul, James Brown...

Mr. Rich: Well...

Russert: ...which is Al Sharpton's introduction to life. He was selling tickets and distributing tickets to poor kids to go see a James Brown concert.

Mr. Rich: Well, I--well, all power to him. I remember sneaking in to a James Brown concert at the old Howard Theater in downtown Washington. In his heyday, it was--what an electrifying figure. And, you know, Sharpton--Sharpton is a charismatic performer. There's no question about it, but to me doesn't mean that he's--you know, ipso facto a s--a real candidate for the president of the United States.

Russert: You have two sons, Nathaniel and Simon. What was it like raising teen-age boys?

Mr. Rich: You know, it's--it's an adventure. I feel I've been very fortunate. These kids--I'm going to sound like a, you know, cliche proud father.

Russert: Go ahead.

Mr. Rich: These kids are--are--are fantastic kids. There is that period in their mid to late teens, as you're discovering, I suspect, when they sor--as a friend of mine, Nora Ephron said, they--they should just be sent to live with Gypsies for a couple of years and then be returned to you. You know, and...

Russert: For how long?

Mr. Rich: Well,for--it's--it's a two or three year when it's like everything is, 'Yeah I know that, dad. Of course, Dad, you know. Yeah, right, you know, that whole thing.'

Russert: They suffer through a conversation.

Mr. Rich: They suffer through a conversation. But it's amazing, they--they come back.

Russert: They come back.

Mr. Rich: They come back and--and they're young men and...

Russert: Do they like politics and the theater?

Mr. Rich: They like--like most kids, they're not so crazy about the theater. They can tolerate the theater. They're huge consumers of pop culture, particularly music, television, movies. They do like politics. They don't like it as much as people of our generation do. They're interested and they follow it and they have opinions, but they're very--they're very concerned with that culture. I mean, you know, my--my--my older son is very concerned with contemporary literature, maybe wants to write fiction himself, is--is working at the New York Review Books in his first post-college job. And my younger son, who just started in college, loves comedy, feels comedy is the way to express opinion. You know, he--he--he actually entered a comedy show in New York, Conan O'Brien a couple of s--summers ago. And he loves writing. He--what they both love is writing. That's what I think they have in common with me.

Russert: Gee, where'd the get that from?

Mr. Rich: But I never pushed it on them, and neither did their mother.

Russert: It's called the genetic code, Rich.

Mr. Rich: I guess so. You know, I wish--I wish they could find a profession that--where they could support me in my old age rather than writing. But they're--they're both actually superb writers and are going to be better writers than I am.

Russert: Well, I can tell you, before we go, you're still the favorite guest lecturer at St. Albans School in Washington.

Mr. Rich: Oh, thanks.

Russert: You talked to those kids, and most of them, you know, good athletes, but you infected them with this love of theater and art and be willing to experience other things.

Mr. Rich: Oh, that's terrific to hear. I enjoy doing it.

Russert: And for that and your column, and we look forward to reading you in the--your last column this weekend.

Mr. Rich: Thank you.

Russert: And then beginning late March, April, the front page of the Arts & Leisure section, a whole new section coming our way.

Mr. Rich: A whole new section and a new column from me.

Russert: Great. Frank Rich, thank you so much.

Mr. Rich: Thank you.

Russert: And once again, his memoir is "Ghost Life," and I learned that that's the little light that's left on in the theater after all the actors leave because the ghost have to be kept away. We'll see you next weekend.

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